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Ashley
 IP: 68.88.174.142 Mar 11, 06 - 11:41 AM |
Concerning penalties for drugs
This paragraph: Q: “Illegal Drugs? Southeast Kansas.” A: I have a very simple solution concerning illegal narcotics. If a person is caught in the possession of a significant amount of an illegal substance or caught in the act of manufacturing, selling or distributing an illegal substance the penalty should resemble the penalties handed down for murder. They should receive a life sentence with no possibility of parole. There should also be stiffer penalties and longer prison terms for lesser drug related offenses followed by mandatory community service at the end of the sentence. It all goes back to the same thing I have stated earlier in this letter. You must make it so that it is no longer worth while for these people to break the law but you also must remove the vermin from the people they prey on. under this heading: WHERE DO YOU STAND PART ONE on this blog: http://blog.myspace.com/ubtat2d is what brings me here today. This sounds pretty extreme, really. Murder? I can almost understand that if the substance involved is something serious like heroin, and the person in question is selling it to young kids, but surely this "same penalty as a murderer" wouldn't apply to petty things like marijuana. If every person who got caught with a bag of pot were sentenced to life in prison with no parole, there would be more people in prison than there are out, the majority of them completely harmless, and taking up the space that should be used for actual murderers, rapists, and the like. Personally, I don't like the idea of my tax dollars being spent to house and feed potheads in prison, nor do I agree with the premise of sending them there in the first place. To be honest, of all the reasons for marijuana to be illegal, I do not consider a single one of them to be valid. Some consider marijuana to be a "gateway drug". Nonsense. There are plenty of people who've smoked pot all their lives and have never even wanted to try any dangerous drugs, such as cocaine, heroin, etc. There are also plenty of people who are cocaine or heroin junkies who do not smoke pot at all. Smoking pot is, in no way shape or form, a guarantee that a person will eventually end up in an alley with a needle in their arm, and it's silly to think that it is. What I also don't understand is the fact that alcohol is legal, while marijuana isn't. Alcohol is far, far more addictive. An addiction to alcohol is physical as well as mental, whereas a marijuana "addiction", if you can call it that, is purely psycological. Alcohol use also causes far more serious injuries and fatalities than marijuana use, in terms of vehicle accidents, bar fights, accidental shootings (think Dick), etc. In short, alcohol is much more dangerous, yet it remains the legal danger. I believe that if the legality of the two were reversed, things could be a lot better than they are now. I'd really like to hear your views on this. |
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Jim George
IP: 72.24.104.36 Mar 11th, 2006 - 5:05 PM |
Concerning penalties for drugs
Ashley, You made some really good points but please notice what I said, "A significant amount of illegal narcotics." Pure hemp is not a narcotic. Narcotics are typically considered man made chemical substances, marijauna does not fall into this classification. My reference was to those that PREY on society selling cocaine, heroin, meth, etc. There are proven medical benifits to marijuana and it is a substance that I feel should be examined more closely for those benefits. Also I think that you would agree with me that a person in possesion of anything over a pound of marijuana is not keeping it solely for PERSONAL USAGE. Penalties for marijuana usage are and should be different than that for narcotic distribution. Remember I am talking about the pushers and dealers. Abuse of alcohol or marijuana for that matter that would end up in the death of another individual as a direct cause of that abuse should be dealt with harshly. I hope this has helped to clear my position for you. -Jim George- 
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Ashley
IP: 68.88.174.142 Mar 11th, 2006 - 5:19 PM |
Re: Concerning penalties for drugs
Thank you very much! I wasn't sure I'd get a reply, considering it's been quite a while since there were any new posts on this forum. I do have a better understanding of your point of view now, and I mostly agree with it. Personally, I believe that any adult over 18 years of age should be able to put anything they please into their bodies as long as they harm no one else. I agree that those who sell highly dangerous drugs to children should be punished with at least a dozen years in prison. What I don't agree with is the harsh punishments for those who sell to adults. The adults who are buying the stuff already know what they're getting into, and I don't see buying it as all that different than making it themselves for personal use, which goes back to the thought that they're adults, and as long as they're not harming anyone else, it's their own problem. When they hurt or kill someone while under the influence, that's when the law should step in, and hand out the harshest punishment they can. Honestly, I think the main problem the government has with drugs being made and sold between adults is the fact that they can't tax it. |
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Jordan Shapley
IP: 24.119.26.51 Mar 15th, 2006 - 9:18 AM |
Re: Concerning penalties for drugs
First, let me start by stating that persons selling narcotics should be punished. "Hard" drugs can adversly affect society and the individuals manufacturing and selling these drugs should not be free from some form of retribution, however lengthy prison sentences may not be the correct answer. The majority of our prisons, both in Kansas, and, more importantly, on the national level, are now filled with non-violent offenders. On the state level, only 49% of the beds are filled with violent offenders, with many rapists, murderers and child molesters being let out early on parole to make bed room for drug pushers. I have no real answer to this problem, other than the belief that we, as a society, need to find a better way to handle these issues. The U.S. already houses a higher prison population than any other country in the world, both in numbers and per capita. I do not advocate making narcotics legal, not do I believe the offenders (think manufacturers and sellers, not users) should face harsh penalties, I'm just not sure letting violent offenders out on parole to enable a drug dealer to serve his/her term is necessarily correct, though I may very well be wrong on this. It also increases our expenses to prosocute and house these individuals. I know that I have no real answer to this issue, and Ashley may very well be correct. It does make on think, though. |
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Maynar
IP: 24.83.82.223 Mar 24th, 2006 - 10:46 PM |
Re: Concerning penalties for drugs
All drugs should be legalized, regulated, quality-controlled and taxed, in conjunction with education/discouragement programs. Until that happens, the prohibition industry juggernaut will roll on, regardless of anyone's best efforts to deflect it. My 2 cents. |
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Jim George
IP: 72.24.104.36 Mar 25th, 2006 - 5:09 AM |
Concerning penalties for drugs
Maynar, I do not believe that is a solution either. To legalize chemical narcotics would increase, not decrease the problems that are already causing a stress on society. Making narcotics more readily available will mean an increase in spending for programs that taxpayers are already burdened with. Increased tax revenue from the NOW legal substances would not be enough to offset increased police forces and regulatory programs. Robberies and muggings, would increase as more junkies worked to get that fix. Healthcare costs would increase as abuse would become more widespread. Bootleg operations along the US borders would increase as the smugglers brought in the narcotics in an attempt to avoid taxation and make a quick buck. Plus with narcotics legal a person would be able to go across the border into Mexico and bring back a set amount on a daily basis which is not subject to customs dues. Soon attendance at Narcotics Anonymous meetings increases and more families lose loved ones from widespread abuse and the diseases caused by same. Junkies soon frivolously sue the drug companies claiming that they did not know that drug abuse causes addiction, disease and death. The courts find in favor of the Junkies and instruct the Drug companies to put warnings on the drugs, run TV commercials about abuse and pay huge settlements to the States and the junkies who filed the suit. Then there are Senate committee hearings on the problem and increased laws, regulations and restrictions. Before long municipalities get into the act from pressure placed on them from Political Action Committees. Bars, restaurants and whole communities become "Drug Free Zones" and we come full circle back to illegal narcotics again as they become harder for the Junkie to obtain. Sound familiar? It should, it is what is currently happening right now with the tobacco and alcohol industries. So what is the solution? Well for one thing we can start thinking outside the box and stop coddling those who promote, distribute and commit violent crimes from and for drug abuse. Courts currently hand down light sentences for these types of crimes. Penalties must be stiffened. For the abuser there needs to be better and more aggressive and progressive treatment programs. Better educational programs for children and stronger enforcement. Going back to the children subject for a moment, if there were more activity programs for children in both urban and rural areas eventual abuse of any substance, drugs, alcohol, etc. could be greatly curtailed. Children belong to the community because they are the future of the community. Each person needs to become involved in each Childs welfare. If there is already support for our children and guided activities then the strangle holds of the gangs, pushers and exploiters is broken. Children pass on what they learn. There has been much discussion about overcrowding of the prison facilities but there is a way to possibly reduce that probability by way of example. First let me State that those who prey on society no longer deserve to be a member of society and should forever be removed from that society. So how can we use their removal as an example to others? Well for one thing separate the drug related criminals into a separate facility away from general population. Make their confinement a visible example to the general public. Rather then hide them from the eyes of society expose them to the eyes of society. Use their incarceration as a visual deterrent. identify the institution for what it is. Instead of ignoring it, exploit it. If you ignore the problem it does not go away. If you recognize it you deal with it and do not want to become part of it. One of the problems that the penal institutions of this Nation have had for awhile is the mixing of prison populations. Separation for all offenses would assist in better rehabilitation for a wide range of offenders. Support groups work. Before someone accuses me of not knowing what I am talking about because I haven't been there let me lay that to rest right now. In my late teens and early twenties my experimentations and recreational usage of drugs led to increased abuse. Due to a loss of a week of my life I was scared straight. I have had friends die in front of me from drug abuse and have had my bank account cleared out by a girlfriend who was supposedly a reformed junkie. My step-father died from a combination of substance abuses and I have had a couple of friends die of similar brain tumors. They were both abusers of marijuana and their usage went far beyond recreational. I've been there, done that and got the t-shirt. I have had 25 years of my life to think about this and what would have prevented my own abuse and what might help others. That is 25 years that I may not have had if I had not got smart. Legalizing chemical narcotics is not the way to help people get smart. Education, involvement and removal of the problem are the first steps to conquering the problem.[ |
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Maynar
IP: 24.83.82.223 Mar 25th, 2006 - 9:31 AM |
Re: Concerning penalties for drugs
Oh, please. Did repealing Prohibition result in people walking around drunk all the time? Was it the end of Western civilization? (OK, I'm paraprasing here) You sure do type purty, tho. |
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Jordan Shapley
IP: 24.119.26.51 Mar 25th, 2006 - 11:45 AM |
Re: Concerning penalties for drugs
I do not agree that all drugs should be legalized, however many of the legal prescription drugs on the market today are far worse than some of the illegal ones. A control, as in legalized cocaine, meth, etc., would allow us to regulate the type of substances ingested. The biggest problem today with crystal meth, as viewed by the criminal justice intsitution, is what is the user ingesting. Without any standardized controls, meth is produced using many different chemicals, making it impossible to determine what the user has ingested, making it harder to treat/label/control. As for treating these individuals, that sounds valid, but it is impossible. One will not quit using until that person is ready to quit, regardless of the number of interventions and rehabs/treatment stays they are forced to go through. It goes back to that maxim, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. Forcing individuals to undergo treatment is a mute point, unless the user signs up him/herself. I'm afraid there is not easy answer to this issue. |
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Ashley
IP: 67.66.111.27 Mar 25th, 2006 - 6:50 PM |
Re: Concerning penalties for drugs
I think the legalization and control avenue would turn out to be the best resolution, even if it didn't appear to be working at first. Education in school concerning discouragement and consequences would be a must, or it wouldn't work at all. Manufacturers would need a license to produce and/or sell their product, same with alcohol. Maybe start out by only applying these guidelines to marijuana, and just reduce the severity of sentencing for harsher drugs. Letting rapists and murderers out of prison to make room for non-violent offenders, like a person who gets caught with a joint in their pocket, is just stupid. It's a rough outline, and I'm sure many details would need to be worked out and modified as unique cases presented themselves, but something definitely needs to be done, because the way things are now is pretty ridiculous. |
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Jim George
IP: 72.24.104.36 Mar 25th, 2006 - 7:13 PM |
Re: Concerning penalties for drugs
Interesting comments. For the record here keep in mind something that I have said quite frequently; "Education Before Legislation." Our government is already overly regulated and we are bombarded with too many laws. FYI: I am a supporter of "Home Rule." No argument with Ashley on the stupidity of letting rapists and murderers out of prison to make room for minor offenders. Violent offenders should never again see the light of day. I knew that someone would reach into the deck and produce the Prohibition Card but it is not a valid argument for the legalization of Narcotics. The 18th Amendment to the Constitution took away a thing that US citizens already LEGALLY had. The 21st Amendment gave it back US Citizens have not had LEGAL chemical narcotics so it is not a "Prohibition" of same. You cannot class it into the same category as the 18th Amendment. The use of illegal narcotics is Statutory not Constitutional. Each time this discussion comes up people seem to miss one of the major points that I make. When I state that life sentences should be handed out I am NOT talking about the abuser or the junkie. They need help NOT incarceration. I am talking about the scum that manufacture, distribute and get our children hooked. They care not for their victims only for what they can get and take from them. My stand on this is not Puritan by any stretch of the imagination. It stems from a real concern of deadly usage of chemical narcotics whose dangers far out number those of alcohol, gambling and tobacco. Even if legalized there will always be those who bootleg that does not and will not change. As human beings our species, as a whole, has a genetic tendency towards addictive behavior. It cannot be dismissed but it can be controlled. I am not talking about Governmental control, I am talking about SELF control. The type of control that stems from self discipline and the support of loved ones. One of the points that I wanted to make in my last post that slipped my mind at the time is this; One of the most powerful tools we have as a species is the love of family and friends. Our society has become so wrapped up in our own little individual all important, self centered world that we have forgot what is really important. If parents once again remember that their most important job is giving guidance to their children and NOT closing the big deal then we would have a good start at helping to curb and stop drug abuse before it happens. Until we start taking responsibility for our actions and start raising our children again nothing will change. The electronic baby sitter does a very poor job of nurturing. There are no easy answers to this subject but their are common sense solutions and alternatives and they all start within your own home.
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Jordan Shapley
IP: 24.119.26.51 Mar 27th, 2006 - 8:33 AM |
Re: Concerning penalties for drugs
Many, but not all, narcotics were legal in this country, including cocaine and morphine. They were sold in over-the-counter forms such as laudanum and coca-cola. As for self help. Many addicts do not want to be helped, unless it is with obtaining more drugs. You can't cure an individual of an addiction unless that particular individual wishes help. I do not, however, believe in a total legalization of all drugs, though I do support the legalization, and not merely the decriminlization of marijauna, I do not put crack or other hard core drugs in this category. I do not agree with everything Jim George is saying, though he makes more sense than the majority of politicians out there, and we have to start somewhere. I know that I don't have any real answers, and am willing to take the time to discuss and implement strategies to deal with this societal problem. I do agree with most of what Gypsy is saying, though, and am glad that there remains a voice of reason that I can follow. I like the education before legistlation track, though. It is the only real option in dealing with this international crisis. |
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Jim George
IP: 72.24.104.36 Mar 27th, 2006 - 9:17 AM |
Concerning penalties for drugs
I am glad that Jordan and others do not agree with every opinion I have. If they did then they would be no more than mindless Neocons following the leader with no real views, opinion or responses of their own. We already have way to much of that now in politics i.e; Arlen Specter and every other far right conservative follower of the gang of five. As for Marijuana, no I do not place it into the same class as hard narcotics.... Two different things. I do want to throw this out there just for the fun of it; Can anyone tell me the difference between these 3 groups of natural drugs? GROUP ONE: Marijuana, Peyote, Alcohol and Tobacco. GROUP TWO: Opium, Thebaine, Morphine and Codeine GROUP THREE: Cocaine For the record here I deleted the last comment made Mayner on this post. They refered to my statement about genetic addiction as "Tripe" and stated that addiction is individual. I removed the comment because I felt this individual was loosing the spirit of the discussion when they started refering to it as boring and complained about the site. I intend for this forum to be an open discussion and exchange of ideas and I do not want to see one individual stifling that purpose for lack of an intelligent response. If I delete a comment it is because I felt it was inappropriate and harmful. I will always give notice of it and why it was deleted as I have done here. Thank You for continueing to contribute.
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Jordan Shapley
IP: 24.119.26.51 Mar 27th, 2006 - 11:15 PM |
Re: Concerning penalties for drugs
Ahhh...the spirit of democracy. I'm not sure, but I'll give it a try. Group Three - Cocaine - Stimulant Group Two - Opium, Thebaine, Morphine, Codeine - All Narcotics Group One - Marijauna, Peyote, Alcohol, Tobacco - This is where I get fuzzy. Marijuana is classified as Cannabis by the DEA, and Peyote is classified as an hallucinogen by the same authority. I couldn't think of any other similarities these drugs had. Here's a fact for you. The DEA has five schedules of drugs. They determine whether the drug has any medical uses, and whether we can test them or not. Schedule V drugs would include over-the-counter cough medicines and aspirin. Schedule IV drugs are Benzodiazapines such as Valiun, Xanax, Ativan, Restoril, Rohypnol (also known as 'roofies,' the date rape drug) and are all widely prescribed by doctors everywhere. Schedule III drugs include Anabolic Steriods. Schedule II drugs, which means they still have some medical uses and are still legal for testing includess Morphine, Codeine, Cocaine and Meth-Amphetamine (can you believe that). Schedule I drugs, which has absolutely no medical use and are therefore banned from researching includes Herion, lsd, and Marijuana. Yes, Marijuana. We can't even legally test it. Doctors prescribe it to cancer patients to help them stimulate an appetite, as well as to ease the pain. The medical community may also prescribe it in other cases if some research could be done. The criminal justice system believes that it should be at least decriminalized like in Canada, if not legalized as in Amsterdam. The biggest problem I have with all of this is that hemp is also illegal because it contains .05% thc, which isn't even enough to get one high. The lumbar industry coupled with the paper industry spends millions on lobbyists to prevent marijuana from even moving to a schedule two drug, which would enable us to do at least a little research. Hemp can be used to make paper, rope, wax, fiberboard, cloth, you name it. And with farming technology today, it can be harvested three to four times per year, instead of the average 30 year date for trees, that is if there not merely destroying another rain forest. It's one more way that corporations control us by controlling the government. Too many politicians are just that, politicians. They know how to present themselves, how to shake hands and kiss babies, and to make the average citizen believe the @#$& coming out of their mouths. They're merely presenting the facts they were briefed about in the limo on the way to the podium. The only way for the average citizen to have any say at all is through their local legislation, and I don't mean federal. Grass roots organizations can still capture the attention of big business, oops, I mean the federal government, though the wave must be big, if that's even possible anymore. Who knows? |
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Jim George
IP: 72.24.104.36 Mar 28th, 2006 - 6:35 AM |
THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE GROUPS
Jordan, You need to go and check out this website http://ksprogressives.org/site/index.php They are a grassroots orgainization that I recently joined and I think you will find that their opinions are a lot like yours. Their views are simular to mine on a lot of issues that is why I joined. I would also suggest to Ashley (another poster here) or anyone else that is interested in grass roots movements that they check them out. Just for the record..... I have no disagreement with anything you stated in your last comment! I agree with you 100% especially from the standpoint of renewable resources. The growing cycle of a tree versus the growing cycle of hemp. I also agree with the medical applications for marijuana. OK, here is the difference between the 3 groups.... The differences you stated were self evident the real difference though is biological and stems from processing and the inherent dangers of that processing. All three groups are NATURAL not SYNTHETIC. GROUP ONE: Marijuana, Peyote, Alcohol and Tobacco. - Processing of these substances is done naturally and does not require the use of dangerous synthetic chemicals. Air drying is all that is required to cure marijuana and tobacco. Any chemicals added to tobacco are done at the processing plants of the big tobacco companies. Natural tobacco blends require no additional chemicals for usage nor does marijuana. Peyote can be used fresh or dried. Alcohol is made with processed plant materials. The distilling process requires no added chemicals to get the desired result and is acheived through brewing and fermintation both natural functions. Whether for medical usage or consumption the process starts the same. GROUP TWO: Opium, Thebaine, Morphine and Codeine. - The later three substances are derived from Opium and require the use of synthetic chemicals to process. Though Opium was once processed naturally that is no longer the case and synthetic chemicals are now used in the large scale processing procedure. Therefore due to this change and the chemical processing of it's derivitives it can no longer be classified in group one. GROUP THREE: Cocaine - Do I really have to state this? The answer should be self-evident but I'll go ahead and state it.... Though a bi-product of the cocoa plant the chemicals that are used to process it moved it out of the natural processing catagory. So what conclusions can we be left with? Well, there are several but one of them may not be very evident when it comes to substances like marijuana and peyote (which I beleive has medical benefits). Drug companies cannot increase their profit margins on substances that need no further processing beyond what the avarage person can do within their home. Just food for thought. 
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Jordan Shapley
IP: 24.119.26.51 Mar 30th, 2006 - 7:40 AM |
Re: Concerning penalties for drugs
I should have gotten that. It's true and also self-evident, once you pointed them out to me anyway. I will check out that grass roots org. Thanks for the notice. Our views aren't the same, but they are extremely similar and if you like their opinions and stances, I'm sure I will too. It would be outstanding if you get elected, then we just need to elect a few more like you and we may be able to take some of our lives back from the government. I'm weary of living in a society based on consumption and fear. Thanks for running. |
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